Riddle me this---a Beersmith question

[Beer-lord]

Well, maybe not just Beersmith related but I know I've read about this before here or elsewhere but I'm curious of the Borg thoughts on this------------
If you put in a flame out hop addition in Beersmith, you get 0 IBU's but when you put in a steep, it lists the IBU's. OK, so it assumes a 0 addition will get chilled right away (I guess it does) but as it takes some time to chill, mainly depending on what you use, why would it not list any IBU's at all? Certainly there are some to be gained.

Is this the reason or is there another reason it's set that way?

[mashani]

Your going to get some bitterness unless you chill it really fast. Maybe just a small amount, maybe a good bit depending on AAUs of the hops.

I think it's simply a matter of "old school thinking" gone into that @0 programming, and "new school thinking" gone into the whirlpool programming. As in that @0 programming existed in every bit of brewing software for about forever, since people in old school world thought if you didn't actually boil the hops you didn't get any IBUs.

And likely it really doesn't matter since we don't really know the AAUs of our hops for real, as we don't really know exactly how old they are and how they were stored before we got them, so that "old school thinking" probably actually just gets the IBUs closer to where people thought they were going to end up by basing their numbers on what is written on the package.

[ScrewyBrewer]

I use a counter-flow wort chiller, so my whirlpool hops will sit in very hot wort (212F-160F) for at least 20 minutes. Regarding bitterness I treat the whirlpool additions as I would aroma hop additions added to the boil.

[BlackDuck]

The reason BeerSmith doesn't put an IBU number on the flame out addition MAY be because everyone's cooling ability is different. Even though the cooling starts immediately, it may take 30 minutes for mine to cool, but it may take 15 minutes for yours to cool. So our IBU numbers would be different. With a small impact in actual IBU's on this addition, BeerSmith may have opted to call it 0.

[Beer-lord]

For yesterday's brew, I had a 0 addition and a 15 minute whirlpool that I didn't start until 15 minutes after I turned off the heat. Therefore, the 0 IBU's are wrong for the 0 addition and I assume more in line wit the 9 IBU's calculated for the 15 minute whirlpool thus adding about 9 more IBU's to my totals.
No big deal, I know Beersmith isn't smart enough to know that I did both a 0 addition and a 15 minute steep which is why I asked.

[Kealia]

I have no good answer for you. I know that with my IC I can chill from boiling to ~170 (which is where I do my hopstands) in just a minute or two (tops).
I know that BS adds IBUs for my hopstands (listed as 30 minutes)........guess I'm not really answering your question. I think everybody summed it up well, though.
0 minute additions may "assume" a quick chill and just list the addition as "0" IBUs.

[mashani]

Hell, I've gotten 60+ IBUs from just large @0 additions with 12-17% AA hops and intentional lack of / slow-poke cooling / lid on hopstands.

I found that I can make an IPA/APA like beer without even boiling my hops if I want by doing that.

[ScrewyBrewer]

I rely on the Tinseth IBU formula for calculating hop additions, it works the best for my full wort boils. The formula is simple, although it does require a lot of math to come up with, what is described as an estimated IBU count. (If anyone reading this can tell the difference between a 35 and a 40 IBU beer, without having a way to measure the bitterness other than taste, please let us know.)

The formula to predict IBUs is stated as: IBU = decimal alpha acid utilization * mg/l of added alpha acids

In plain speak it uses the average specific gravity of the wort, the average gravity of the wort from OG to FG, based on the length of time and the alpha acid of each hop boiled. Hop utilization is affected by wort gravity, as the gravity of the wort increases, hop utilization decreases. To me it comes as no surprise there are differences in predicting the utilization and IBUs of post boil hop additions, when predicting the IBU of boiled hops is at best a prediction.

[mashani]

Hop utilization and what exactly is utilized (and really any kind of solute/solvent relationship) is really defined by Time, Temperature, and PH. Wort gravity specifically has an affect on boiling temperature and PH. A rolling boil of a higher concentrated wort is at a slightly higher temperature then a lower concentrated wort, just like any sugar solution (it is also affected by other factors too, other stuff in your water, your elevation/air pressure and other stuff matters too). In a normal full volume boil of a beer the changes may be subtle, but they exist, and your boil temperature and ph is changing a bit as the wort concentrates (how PH changes slightly depends on wort composition, IE simple sugars are fixed/neutral, but compounds added/in the wort that set/adjust the intial PH are not, and concentration will affect it because of this). The formulas try to factor this in, but they can't deal with all the variables without needing to input more information then any brewer would want to bother with, or even know. So they are just "guestimates", the formulas are all just more or less closeish types of things, they can't account for all factors. But ultimately, different compounds are extracted better in certain temperature/ph ranges as is the solvents ability to take on more stuff. (over simplified science FTW).

In an extract + top up batch, the wort concentration is higher, so it changes things. Which is why we have all the use some extract up front and the rest @10 type of scenarios, to try to keep the formulas more accurate by keeping you "in bounds" as such and simulate more closely the temperature/ph changes over time that would exist in a full volume batch. And of course it helps not darken/sweeten the beer more due to kettle caramelizing.

But to throw a big wrench into this (as in go "out of bounds").

IE if I do one of the super concentrated short boils with massive top up to cool, like I just did, I get way (way way) more hop utilization then any formula suggests I should, likely because my boiling point and PH levels because of that concentration are way off the charts so to speak (IE my boiling point is more like candy making vs. beer brewing). The formulas say it should turn out to be shit, but it doesn't. They simply aren't designed around that sort of thing and can't deal with it. They can't fathom the temperature and PH levels I'm at. Also, the "isomerization" of the AAs that only happens at high temps happens for a longer time then expected after I turn off the heat in such a boil because it's so fooking hot and the thermal mass is so high even though the volume is low. It's also why I keep the lid on the pot for such boils, and leave it on while it cools, because otherwise I'd lose every bit of volatile aroma compound.

I threw up a link to a chart once that I found on the internet that came from some old $10,000 pre-internet very chemistry oriented commercial brewing book that showed how various compounds were affected by time/temperature/ph. It is relevant to not just boiling, but how late and dry hopping works, what can be expected to come out of dry hops, IE alcohol and PH changes during fermentation change's your solvent/solute relationship too. (IE why some people might get grass from some hops where others might not may be as simple as what kind of beer they are throwing them into and when).

I have no idea where that chart is anymore though. The link is somewhere here or on the old Mr. Beer forum.

I think a lot of the NE IPA folks are "rediscovering" a lot of the concepts that were trying to be described by that book/chart. Although I think the book/chart were more about how to avoid some of the things (ie how to keep your German beer from getting grassy from saaz), instead of trying to embrace them like the NE IPA folks are doing.

[ScrewyBrewer]

So far I have been unable to locate a single brewing calculator out there incorporating pH in IBU formulas. The formulas used to predict hop utilization look at a hop's alpha acid percentage, time in the boil and the average specific gravity of the wort; which is determined on the original gravity of the wort and length of time in the boil.

Where pH becomes a factor is in the ratio of water to grain in the mash tun, something that is beyond the control of a brewer using extract. The pH of the extract becomes locked, once it goes into a drum or can, or is dried and packaged.

[mashani]

That's simply because its too complicated, and the calculations all make assumptions based on how it "works" in a typical boil with typical conditions and typical ph range is simply part of the "assumption" that went into where the numbers were derived from. Yes, a simple sugar solution at any given concentration with totally pure water would have a fixed PH, but wort can be more complicated then that depending on it's composition, your water isn't pure (brewers mess with it to make sure it isn't!), and other compounds that affect your water/wort can change the ph slightly at a higher concentration as volume reduces. So however they figured it in, or just measured the end result and based off end result measurements (which is likely how all the formulas used were derived). But really it doesn't matter how. That's why it's an assumption and why there isn't a single formula that everyone agrees on or actually works out fully accuratly for everyone in all scenarios.

But ultimately chemistry says PH, Time, and Temperature all effects solute/solvents, so even if your PH doesn't change more then a tiny fraction, the temperature still matters to some small extent during the boil and potentially more during fermentation depending on what you add and when, and the length of contact matters very much (but how much again depends on temperature and ph). It's all ultimately interdependent.

And that's all this stuff is, your wort is a solvent, your hop compounds are things being extracted by it. Then other reactions might occur, IE isomerization. Or the extracted compounds might get boiled off into your air if they are volatile... or not if you put a lid on it... maybe they stay in your wort during fermentation, maybe they change into other compounds during fermentation (NE IPA people like this idea), maybe they blow off out your airlock....

And what I'm describing as compounds are more then simply Alpha Acids, but all sorts of other hop compounds that get extracted, when they do, like I said ultimately it affects late hops, dry hops, hops you throw in commando, etc... And again alcohol changes the solvent properties of your wort too, so some hop compounds might get extracted from late hops added or commando hops that never get extracted in the boil (IE the proverbial grass flavor).

Which is again what all those NE IPA people are rediscovering, except in a way that they find favorable instead of detrimental.

The formulas all only consider isomerized hops to be the bitterness. But we know this isn't true. You can get plenty of bitter and measurable IBUs from non-isomerized hops as people have been finding out recently. It's often a different kind of bitterness perceptually, but it's still bitter. The difference is likely also from what I am describing, other things extracted because the wort conditions were different. Also although some of the AA derived bitterness degrades over time, especially in theory non isomerized AAs, the beta acids create a bitterness when they oxidize and depending on the hops you used, it can balance out things as the beer ages. This is especially true with "noble" hop varieties or similar with high beta acid content.

But none of that is factored in by these formulas either. It's just "shit that happens".

EDIT: I should also mention that although yes, the PH of extract dried or canned is fixed in the can or bag, the actual PH of the boil (and the various mineral content) when you dilute the stuff with your tap water, is likely different then when I dilute it with my tap water, and likely different then when some other person dilutes it with their tap water. Because tap water is all over the place. Some buffering can occur, but it's not going to end up identical everywhere. That's why you treat your mash water, and/or start with RO water and built up form it, to get the mineral content and your final PH where you want it to be at full volume. I think the water used for dilution is one of the reasons some folks make great extract beer, and other people think their extract beer always sucks regardless of process. You can "build your own water" for dilution just like you build your own water for a mash to work around this if you like of course, but it's tricky because you don't really know what's in the extract, so you have to tweak a bit blindly and judge by results. Through trial and error I know what I need to do to get really good results with my local water and the extract I get from MoreBeer, but what I do is likely not useful to someone living in a different place or using a different brand of extract. Some brands of extracts will list what PH they are at in a 10% weight/volume solution. IE they will say something like pH 10 % w/v solution: 4.7 – 5.4 or something like that in the description. So you can use that to help figure things (sorta) if you can find that information from the manufacturer.

[Kealia]

It's just "shit that happens".

This is how I explain brewing to people who ask about how it works when I know they don't REALLY care.

[mashani]

It's just "shit that happens".

This is how I explain brewing to people who ask about how it works when I know they don't REALLY care.

[ScrewyBrewer]

Which is again what all those NE IPA people are rediscovering, except in a way that they find favorable instead of detrimental.

In the May/June 2017 issue of Zymurgy magazine Martin wrote a very informative article about NEIPA brewing water. This style turns the chloride to sulfate ratios of IPA brewing on its ear. No more sulfate levels near 250-300ppm, NEIPA water favors higher chloride and lower sulfate levels. Aside from the hazy appearance of the style, NEIPA is brewed with water in the 100-150ppm chloride and 50-75ppm sulfate range. When formulating my first attempt at brewing an NEIPA, this issue will be sitting next to my keyboard as I create the water profile.

In the same issue Denny wrote an article titled "The IBU Is A Lie" that highlights some flaws found in many IBU formulas. Interestingly enough his research led to a conversation with Dr. Tinseth of the Tinseth formula fame. In the end the conclusion was what most of us would have guessed. Using a laboratory to analyze the IBUs of each beer they found the IBU values of higher gravity beers, like a ~9% alcohol DIPA, were actually 28% lower than predicted by the formulas.

[mashani]

FYI: I think all of us here who made the NEIPAs adjusted our chloride ratios. I did even though mine was only a PM. I just "guestimated" based on experience with my water and what I know of about my water and the extract I added. It seemed to work fine, I ended up with something that seemed very authentically NEIPA like and was delicious while it lasted. But damn was it ugly looking.

RE the IBU thing, I've said this before but it's always worth repeating. The IBUs of our homebrew is not what we think either, unless we are really lucky. We don't know how our hops were stored before we got them. We don't know for real how old they are. Different types of hops degrade at different rates (and it depends on storage conditions / temperatures). You can find that part of the information at places like hopunion and such. But it's very possible that the hops being used have only 60-70% of the AAUs that it says on the label by the time you use them. Or less. Or more. It again depends on how they were stored and how old they really are.

The good news is it's something like 7 IBUs for lots of people before they really even can notice the difference. So for most types of beer, probably you won't notice a big difference anyways.

I might go all crazy about technical mumbo jumbo on some threads, but my actual philosophy when it comes to brewing is that sometimes stuff is out of our control, much of it really doesn't matter so much, and rules are made to be broken as long as it makes good beer.

EDIT: I guess I should mention that the difference between 200 theoretical IBUs and 150 IBUs, or 140 IBUs and 100 IBUs or whatever in a DIPA won't be very noticeable by humans anyways even though it's more then that 7 IBU difference, there is a limit and then your brain says "bitter!" and that's then end of it.

When I think of a good DIPA, I don't care of it's 90 or 200 IBUs, I care about how much of the hops were added late in the boil, whirlpooled, dry hopped vs. early additions. That's where the real taste difference comes from. IBUs at that point is just a magic number.

Also when we aren't talking about DIPAs, so say a 9% low bitter level heavy ale of some sort... now we are talking more along the 7 IBUs or so difference mattering maybe, BUT since most people age those beers for 6, 8, or 12 months or even longer, the beta acids oxidizing and adding bitterness because of that likely starts to help balance that out, which is why nobody notices or cares, and they probably won't measure as "IBUs" in a lab test because all those tests tend to measure is isomerized alpha acids, but we can and do get perceived bitterness from other places then that.