Whirlpool hopping

[teutonic terror]

This is my first attempt at a hopstand/whirlpool hop...
any pointers or suggestions BORG?

[HerbMeowing]

What's your plan?

[Gymrat]

Cool your wort to 170F then shut your chiller off and throw the hops in. If you hop stand higher than that you will extract bitterness.

[teutonic terror]

Following hat Beersmith says and add at flameout...
do I add hops and let it set and cool to a certain temp before chilling,
or do I start my chiller and leave hops in the wort until pitch temperature?
Not exactly sure on either!

[teutonic terror]

Thank you Gymrat!

[mashani]

I start mine at higher temps (flamout or soon after) to kill my house brett, but to compensate for that I put a lid on the pot (to keep aroma from blowing off into the air as it cools, the oils recondense back into the wort as it cools and keep my house brett out as it cools), and I also account for the extra bitterness extracted by adjusting my hop amounts/timings. Even at 170 you are going to blow off a lot of aroma compounds if you don't put a lid on it, IE you will get more flavor then aroma. Need to get down to 150 or 140 to preserve more of the aroma without a lid. Even at those temps you will loose some, which is why a dry hop is still potentially a good thing even with a whirlpool/hop stand.

[Gymrat]

I start mine at higher temps (flamout or soon after) to kill my house brett, but to compensate for that I put a lid on the pot (to keep aroma from blowing off into the air as it cools, the oils recondense back into the wort as it cools and keep my house brett out as it cools), and I also account for the extra bitterness extracted by adjusting my hop amounts/timings. Even at 170 you are going to blow off a lot of aroma compounds if you don't put a lid on it, IE you will get more flavor then aroma. Need to get down to 150 or 140 to preserve more of the aroma without a lid. Even at those temps you will loose some, which is why a dry hop is still potentially a good thing even with a whirlpool/hop stand.

When I walk 50 feet to turn off my chiller and 50 feet back before tossing hops in the temperature has dropped to about 155 or so.

[philm00x]

I like to do mine at flameout, typically for about 10 minutes and with the lid on. Some recipes I've seen call for longer times, particularly a clone recipe for Heady Topper that calls for 30 minutes at flameout with X amount of hops and then asks to chill the wort to a given temperature and add more hops to steep for another 15 minutes before finally having you chill the wort to pitching temp. Personally, I've gotten great aroma in my hoppy beers with just a 10 minute steep, without contributing anything undesirable to the beer like excessive bitterness.

[DjPorkchop]

I like to do mine at flameout, typically for about 10 minutes and with the lid on. Some recipes I've seen call for longer times, particularly a clone recipe for Heady Topper that calls for 30 minutes at flameout with X amount of hops and then asks to chill the wort to a given temperature and add more hops to steep for another 15 minutes before finally having you chill the wort to pitching temp. Personally, I've gotten great aroma in my hoppy beers with just a 10 minute steep, without contributing anything undesirable to the beer like excessive bitterness.

^^^ Yep, this!

I do 10 minute steep at flame out as well on certain recipes. I ran it through good old qbrew and I don't think it accounts for any extra bitterness as it didn't raise any in the calculation.

[DjPorkchop]

I like to do mine at flameout, typically for about 10 minutes and with the lid on. Some recipes I've seen call for longer times, particularly a clone recipe for Heady Topper that calls for 30 minutes at flameout with X amount of hops and then asks to chill the wort to a given temperature and add more hops to steep for another 15 minutes before finally having you chill the wort to pitching temp. Personally, I've gotten great aroma in my hoppy beers with just a 10 minute steep, without contributing anything undesirable to the beer like excessive bitterness.

^^^ Yep, this!

I do 10 minute steep at flame out as well on certain recipes. I ran it through good old qbrew and I don't think it accounts for any extra bitterness as it didn't raise any in the calculation.

[teutonic terror]

I ended up doing like Gymrat suggested.
I threw the hops in in a bag and steeped them for thirty
minutes before chilling to pitch temperature.
A new adventure for me!
Thank you for the answers, and I'll have to keep all of your
techniques in mind from now on!

[philm00x]

I've done mine thru BeerSmith and it does add an IBU or two here and there, so it does account for it. But like I said, nothing major.


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[mashani]

I find with 30 minute lid on hop stand starting at flameout and without any active cooling during that time frame, I get about 10 minutes of equivalent extra AAU utilization. I am not going to say that's exact as I've never measured it in a lab, but from my taste perception of balance when I have made "known" recopies, adjusting my hop schedule with that in mind seems to give me the results I'm looking for.

I don't think I've ever done one as short as 10 minutes.

I have mentioned this before, but I think maybe this is a good place to mention it again. When I say temps over 150 or whatever blowing off compounds, I don't mean everything. No matter what you will get some type of hoppy aroma. But it's a question of what types and in what ratio. Every type of essential oil / aroma compound in hops has a different temperature where it becomes volatile and starts to blow off into the air. So what it ultimately comes down to is what compounds you want to preserve. Of the four main oils folks consider, Myrcene will be blowing off as low as 147, so the 150 is there to help preserve most of it as it cools. That oil is something like 50% of what makes cascade what it is, so if you are using cascade and you want the aroma to be full monty cascadey, then you probably want to toss that in at 150 or < unless your putting on a tight fitting lid and cooling it back down to 150 or so before you take it off. Where say Farnesene and Humulene won't really blow off until your above 200 degrees. And Caryophellene won't blow off even at boiling temps. So noble hops or related modern European hops, and hops like EKG or American variants based on noble hops are a bit more stable as they are made up of more of those things. But some popular American IPA hops are very much not. Regardless of temp, they don't all blow off instantly, and different temps will affect the rate. So what it comes down to is to match a recipe the temps and timing does matter, and hop choice and intended profile have an affect on what your results will be at any given temp.

[braukasper]

Sorry for the late response. I have added the hops at flame out and at lower temps. I now get most of my bitterness form late additions and flame-out, flavor and aroma from the later charges. One major difference that I do is that I am recirculating the wort to form the whirlpool