Imperial A07 Flagship yeast attenuation

[Beer-lord]

I brewed a RyePA Sunday and both the refractometer and hydrometer showed it was 1.062 (shooting for .64). I added the Tilt and it showed it as 1.059, no surprise. I oxygenated the 6 gallons in the fermenter for 45 seconds as I usually do and added a 2L yeast starter. The Imperial was just at expiration date so I overbuilt the starter to save some. The starter was done in 24 hours and I cold crashed it so I could decanter into the fermenter.
Fermentation began in just about 4 hours which is really good. The next morning it was kicking it and the Tilt showed it at 1.044. That night, just about 32 hours after pitching, it was down to 1.025. I was now assuming the Tilt was wrong. Tuesday night, only a bit more than 48 hours after pitching, it was down to 1.011 and this morning, 1.005. So this morning I added some Cryo hops and took a taste as well as a refractometer reading. It was dry! Not in a really bad way but the refractometer pretty much matched the Tilt meaning, the yeast that is listed and usually shows 73%-77% attenuation was showing 90%. My 6.4% beer has turned into an almost 7.5% DIPA.

So I guess I am questioning what I did that caused this. I did use Cryo hops in the whirlpool which I don't think I had ever before. I mashed at 152 and it never got higher than 153. The ph was 5.28 and the recipe is below.
I used the Hoppy setting for water and it's basically Randy Mosher's IPA water profile which I have used before. However, while it seems normal for many, I don't recall having the S04 at 275 and I try to keep that under 225 and I'm wondering if that's the case with the rye adding something as well.....really don't know. Way too early to judge the beer but I don't think the dryness is changing for the better. 1.005 isn't overly bad but when you're expecting 1.015, you're not going to get the same beer.

Thoughts?????


Malts (13 lb 8 oz)
9 lb 8 oz (67.9%) — Mecca Grade Estate Malt Lamonta: Pale American Barley Malt — Grain — 2.8 °L
2 lb 8 oz (17.9%) — Mecca Grade Estate Malt Rimrock: Vienna-style Rye Malt — Grain — 5 °L
1 lb (7.1%) — Proximity Munich 10 — Grain — 4.3 °L
8 oz (3.6%) — Proximity Crystal 30 — Grain — 11.8 °L
Other (8 oz)
8 oz (3.6%) — Briess Rice Hulls — Adjunct — 0 °L

Hops (6 oz)
0.5 oz (20 IBU) — Chinook 13.6% — Boil — 60 min
1 oz (24 IBU) — Citra 12% — Boil — 20 min
1.5 oz (8 IBU) — Simcoe 13% — Boil — 0 min
0.5 oz (4 IBU) — citra cryo 22.2% — Aroma — 15 min hopstand
2 oz — Cryo Simcoe 23.8% — Dry Hop — 5 days
0.5 oz — Cryo Citra 22.2% — Dry Hop — 5 days
Hopstand at 180 °F

Miscs
2.4 g — Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) — Mash
0.7 g — Canning Salt (NaCl) — Mash
6.3 g — Epsom Salt (MgSO4) — Mash
12.5 g — Gypsum (CaSO4) — Mash
1.5 ml — Lactic Acid 80% — Mash

Yeast
1 pkg — Imperial Yeast A07 Flagship
Water Profile
Ca+2 105 Mg+2 18 Na+ 16 Cl- 50 SO4 275 HCO3- 16

[mashani]

Flagship is just Chico strain AFAIK. It should top out at ~77-78% even with a high fermentable mash.

If it keeps on going even further then 90%, I say you have some saccharomyces cerevisiae var. diastaticus action going on somehow.

[Beer-lord]

Might be down to 1.003 now and holding. I'll keg the end of next week and give it a taste before doing so just to see what I get out of it. But dry is all I get as of now.

[mashani]

Might be down to 1.003 now and holding. I'll keg the end of next week and give it a taste before doing so just to see what I get out of it. But dry is all I get as of now.

That is getting into Bella Saison territory, which is a domesticated saccharomyces cerevisiae var. diastaticus strain.

If you had made a Saison with it or French Saison liquid yeast as your last batch, then I would say you had some cross contamination with live yeast still in the fermenter somehow.

If it is that stuff or a relative, then you might go down to 1.002 to 0.997 even. That kind of yeast can break down starch and eat it. Crystal malt? big malt sugars? Bah, easy pickings as long as you made a bunch of happy yeast in a starter or by oxygenating enough (or using dry yeast which is more impervious to that) and having good nutrient/FAN wort makeup. Sounds like you did that right LOL.

Since your kegging it will vent pressure so I guess your safe even if it keeps going. But it's possible there won't be anything sweet left in it besides the alcohol.

That stuff as a wild yeast infection if put into bottles before it's done is one of the typical "gusher infection" bugs, where the beer tastes ok if you can manage to actually salvage some - just dry.

I wonder if they put their Napoleon yeast in an A07 package by accident and you got the lucky draw? If when it is done it has some peppery phenolic flavors, and/or some other kind of citrus flavor / aroma that you are not expecting from your hops, then that's what I would suspect.

In any case, this is why I never make beer more then ~1.05 OG with Bella Saison. Just that will give you a 6.5% beer with that yeast.

If you saw Berryman talk about the "Drunken Farmer" beer, imagine a 1.09 beer that ends up at 12%. I did that once and then learned better. That is why I took that same kit and broke it into 3rds and made 3 beers out of it every time after that LOL.

[bpgreen]

Follow up question.

If this is an infection, or even some leftover saison yeast, does he need to retire (if infection) or isolate (if saison yeast) tube fermenter? I'm assuming that's the car if it's a plastic fermenter.

[Beer-lord]

The last time I had some wonky stuff going on I couldn't isolate I used IO Star iodine sanitizer. My LHBS had recommended that I use that instead of Star San about once a month or so as it seems to kill more things than Star San. I guess I'll do that either way since I've not used it in over a year.
I keep a pretty clean brewery and while I know everyone thinks they do, I'm not convinced it's an infection yet. But, this yeast did take off very fast. Almost as fast as Kveik yeast and that had me curious.

[Beer-lord]

I feel like I should add my thoughts that I feel the Tilt is not accurate in my SS Brewtech fermenter. I don't care what Tilt says, if I put plain water in it, close it up and test it, the readings are not exactly the same as if I put it in a plastic bucket with water. But I've sent them my questions about it and just got a canned response.

Does the Tilt work in stainless steel conical fermenters?

Yes. There are hundreds of customers using the Tilt in a variety of SS fermenters. You will have reduced Bluetooth range and will need to place your smartphone/tablet closer to your fermenter to receive data.

[mashani]

Follow up question.

If this is an infection, or even some leftover saison yeast, does he need to retire (if infection) or isolate (if saison yeast) tube fermenter? I'm assuming that's the car if it's a plastic fermenter.

No it is just yeast, it is big and won't hide in microscopic cracks like a bacterial infection - it is easy to kill with regular sanitizer. You just need to make sure you get sanitizer on everything with the necessary contact time. Disassemble and separately sanitize any bits like spigots. Soak your tubing. That sort of thing, and it will be fine.

I use Saison yeast of this kind in my plastic fermenters with spigots all the time without trouble.

But, this yeast did take off very fast. Almost as fast as Kveik yeast and that had me curious.

I'm seriously thinking you got the Napoleon yeast by accident. Based on my experience with these kinds of yeasts, it could easily start active fermentation in possibly 4 hours or less if pitched at a good enough rate. Maybe COVID19 screwed up their assembly line and the wrong stuff got packaged. If I pitch a pack of Bella into a 3 gallon batch at warmer temps (70s pitching temps), I sometimes see krausen in as little as 2 hours.

But French Saison works at low temps, it doesn't need high temps like Belgian Saison strain to be happy. It will work at 62 degrees just fine. Maybe even lower. They are really completely different kinds of yeast even though they are both called "Saison" strains.

[Beer-lord]

FWIW, I asked my LHBS owner what he thought of the Tilt and his facial expression said more than his words. One of them was 4 letters.

[Beer-lord]

So here's the dealio---I kegged this beer after only 12 days because it was ready but as I thought all along, the Tilt was W.R.O.N.G.! I know I calibrated it correctly because its so simple that even I can do it.
Anyway, this yeast still attenuated very high at over 84%. The actual FG is 1.009 instead of the projected 1.015 so 7% instead of 6.4% but the Tilt would have it at over 8%.
So, this weekend's brew I'm going to take a hydrometer reading and then add the Tilt to the fermenter and force calibrate it to match the hydromoter. Yes, this defeats the purpose of having the Tilt but I want to see if it matches a true, FG this time.
Bottom line, don't buy one. Oh, and this is the best tasting beer at kegging time. That probably means bad news but I could drink this 'raw'.

[HerbMeowing]

tilt isn't good in pinball either ...

[mashani]

I've never had a beer that I could drink "raw" turn out bad, so I think you will be loving it.

Glad to know it wasn't scary yeast and was just stupid electronics.