Baseline Berliner Weiss

[mashani]

Hey, just FYI, I did a little 1 gallon batch of this, except for a couple things to mess around.

I made a 500ml "yogurt starter" using some pilsner dme and 1tsp of Fage Greek yogurt to introduce the lacto. The rest was AG (mainly because I have very little DME on hand these days), I went with 40% Pilsner, 50% white wheat, and 10% Oak Smoked wheat, mashed it in the oven in my pot, boiled it with just a couple of hop pellets of Hallertau Blanc, cooled, pitched the starter, did the saran wrap thing, and then when that did its thing, fermented it in a cider jug with a couple of TBSP or so of trub from one of my other batches.

It's turned out cloudy as hell, but damn it's good tasting.

If you get bored of the basic recipe, that little bit of smoke is really good with the sour. It's mellow, but it adds something interesting. I wouldn't do it with a strongly flavored smoked malt, but the oak smoked wheat is really nice. The smoke goes really nice with cherry or raspberry syrup shots too.

[Kealia]

Very interesting and timely - thanks.
The second keg of this just kicked last night and I'm being told that I need to whip up a new batch ASAP.
I ordered two packets of the Omega yeast to prepare for this eventuality. I think I may like a *little* smoke, but the girls wouldn't. I'll keep this in mind for a future batch of my own, thanks.

[mashani]

The oak smoked wheat is sweet and mellow. Much mellower then other types of smoked malts. I don't like strongly smoked beers like Rauchbier at all. But I do like beers with just a little bit of the oak smoked wheat a lot.

[Kealia]

I forgot to update this thread after using the GoodBelly. It worked just fine and if there was a taste difference it may be due to "test bias" on my part. In any case, the girls loved the second batch, too.

[Kealia]

*BUMP*
I'm going to start on the "Duchess Clone" this weekend, with the 'brew day' scheduled for Tuesday. I just need to swing by MoreBeer tomorrow to pick up the grains.
I'm really wanting to do a BW version that I hit with some dry hops - just for fun. As I mentioned earlier, I'm thinking that my old friend Nelson may make an appearance when I do that, so I may be brewing 2 batches back-to-back.

[Kealia]

Alright, 3G of 1.060 wort in the carboy along with some Lacto bugs. Go bugs go!

In 48-72 hours it should be ready to dump back into the kettle to boil and proceed with the recipe. I just need to swing by MoreBeer this week and pick up the oak cubes.

[Kealia]

Another batch in the works as of an hour ago. Pitched the Omega starter into the wort at 90 and it's set to sour for the next 48-72 hours. Looking back, the GoodBelly batch was good, but this yeast makes it better. The same way that a sour made with bugs and allowed to sour over time is more complex than this kettle sour method. But, we like it so we'll keep doing it this way because they turn around quickly.

[Kealia]

I'm preparing to brew this again, but going AG this time around to see if I can get a lighter beer with a bit more wheat/cracker flavor than I've been getting from my DME batches....just because I can't leave well-enough alone.

With that, I've got a few things that I feel unsure about with the new process I'll be using on the Mash & Boil:
1) I'm not planning to boil the wort at all, and I'm using 60/40 wheat to pilsner (with plenty of rice hulls planned)
2) I'm going full-water volume BIAB

I plan on mashing, then bringing to a boil just to kill off any nasties. Then, I'll drop temp to 100 and pitch the Lacto for the kettle-souring as I have been doing.
When it's soured, I'll bring back to 180 for 30 minutes to again kill off anything (like normal), then drop temp to normal fermenting temps for US-05.

Questions:
- Any issues with not boiling the pilsner malt? What I've read lately really suggests that the DMS (and pre-cursors) really shouldn't be an issue.
- It's been a while since I've done full-on BIAB style, so if somebody can double-check my numbers below, I'd appreciate it:
(My numbers: 6.11 lbs grain, grain temp will room temp, call it 68, batch size is 5G (into fermentor), mash temp desired - 149, no boil - or boil off as a
result, of course, kettle size is 7.5G, trub loss should be minimal @ 0.25G)
- I'm looking for strike water temp = ? (Using Beersmith I get ~157 and another calculator I'm getting 154)
- Grain absorption - ? (Using BS again, I get 0.73G and my own numbers show 0.76G)
- Total water needed - ? (My numbers show 6.5G which is related to my absorption rate, but other calculators show 5.5G)

I appreciate any help here. Since I haven't done BIAB style in a while, plus the no boil, I'm getting a little thrown off.

[Beer-lord]

Besides Beersmith, I use a few BIAB water Calculators (recently I've been using testing and enjoying Screwy Brewer's EZRecipe) but this one was what I was pretty much sticking with for many years- https://pricelessbrewing.github.io/BiabCalc/#Advanced
It asks you for a number of things and I've not used it without any boiling time listed. You can try to fill in the blanks, such as kettle size, volume, etc. and see how close it comes to what you've tried with Beersmith. Don't forget to choose Imperial as your unit of measure at the top.
In my opinion, all GOOD water calculators should ask for kettle dimensions and volume so be most accurate.

The rest of the stuff you asked about I can't comment on as I've not done kettle souring but may just try it one day.

[BlackDuck]

I'm not sure I can be any help answering your questions. I don't do BIAB and I've never done a no boil batch. I'm just useless!!

[mashani]

DMS should not be an issue if you chill fast from near boiling and get a vigorous fermentation. But DMS precursor production does increase dramatically between 160 to boiling, and it's exponential with temperature rise, IE it's 2x as much at 170 then 160 and 2x more then 170 at 180, and … so the warmer you get the more likely bad things could happen.

So if you want to be SURE, then I'd do what I've been doing which is do your mash, then after you pull the basket just let it sit at 150 for a couple of hours with whatever hops are needed to get to my AAUs. AAU utilization at that temperature is about 5% of what you'd get in a 1 hour boil per 1 hour of contact. So it is not a lot, but in your case you don't want very many, no more then 7 for sure, so it will not take much hops to get this anyways. Anything below around 156 and your going to get insignificant amounts of DMS precursors over many many hours.

Beersmith will give you good water absorption #'s for full volume if you pick a BIAB mash (it works for me at least), but also this calculator works well.

http://www.biabcalculator.com/

[Kealia]

I thought I recalled you doing something like this.

Let me ask this:
After I mash and pull the grains, I won't be adding any hops since I'm kettle-souring. So, can I still leave at 150 for 2 hours, then drop to 100 and pitch my Lacto?
After it is soured, I'll be adding some hops (about 5 IBUs) but not boiling, so can I raise back to 150 for 2 hours or will that not kill the Lacto?

Edit to add: If I'm adding my hops after souring, I might as well boil for 30-60 minutes to ensure I kill everything off. Plus, it would be faster at that point to do a short boil versus a temp hold @ 150 for 2 hours.

[mashani]

I thought I recalled you doing something like this.

Let me ask this:
After I mash and pull the grains, I won't be adding any hops since I'm kettle-souring. So, can I still leave at 150 for 2 hours, then drop to 100 and pitch my Lacto?

Yes, 2 hours should be enough to pasteurize any bugs from the grains. I have not gotten any infections doing this, and I've done it 4 times now. And I am slow chilling for like 20 hours, so if there was something alive in there I'd have found out for sure. Since I'm slow chilling it is technically still pasteurizing for me until it drops below 140, but that's not going to take too long once I turned off the heat, maybe I'm getting another 30 minutes of pasteurization.

I should mention that I am doing a step mash of sorts for these to avoid protein haze since I'm not getting a hot break. So I am putting the grains in the mash & boil once it hits about 100 degrees, and then setting it at 1000 watts and setting the temp to 150, and then walking away for around 100-120 minutes. Then pulling the grains and letting it sit another 2 hours with whatever hops I am adding. So I've really got everything at 150 for more like 2 1/2 to 3 hours including the mash time and maybe above 140 for another half hour after that. But 2 hours should be plenty anyways.

After it is soured, I'll be adding some hops (about 5 IBUs) but not boiling, so can I raise back to 150 for 2 hours or will that not kill the Lacto?

2 hours at 150 should murder any lacto unless it's some really freakish strain of it.

Edit to add: If I'm adding my hops after souring, I might as well boil for 30-60 minutes to ensure I kill everything off. Plus, it would be faster at that point to do a short boil versus a temp hold @ 150 for 2 hours.

That makes sense for this. I've been putting my hops into the mash and steep in whatever qty is needed to get the AAUs I want, using really high AA but low flavor hops (Mandarin Bavaria or H. Blanc) for things where I don't want big flavor/aroma impact. But if you want NONE while you have the lacto in the mix, then this way would be better.

EDIT: not that you would want them in this kind of beer, but FWIW, there is something called "steam hops" which you can get lots of AAUs from with minimal contact time and heat, they are basically pre-isomerized hops. But they are hard to get and $spendy so I've not bothered with them.

[Kealia]

Editing post since I answered my own question and developed a new plan of attack for this beer. As I was setting my M&B to have the water ready for me in the morning, I started thinking about an overnight mash to speed things up. Then I decided that if I still need to hold the wort @ 150 for 2 hours post-mash since I won't be bringing it to a boil, that I wouldn't save as much time as I could, so I came up with a new plan.

I'm going to mash tonight, pull the grains and leave it at 150 overnight to kill off the bad stuff. When I get up in the morning all that will be left is to drop the temp to 95 and pitch my Lacto starter in. I'll then leave it for 48 hours and then do my 30-minute boil on Tuesday, chill and put into the fermentor with the US-05 to ferment it out.

Going this route should break up my brew days into minimal effort over 3 days to achieve my results.

Water heating now....

[Kealia]

Updating for my own notes more than anything. I was planning to hold at 150 overnight because I was going to mash, then pul lthe grains and go to bed.
I ended up being up later than planned, so I held the temp @ 150 for 2 hours, then dropped the temp on the M&B to 95 and let it cool overnight.

By just before noon on Sunday the temp was 95 so i pitched the Lacto starter, purged with CO2, and sealed it up. I plan on my 30-minute boil on Tuesday, then cool and pitch the US-05.