Lager Advice

[berryman]

I guess I'm going to try another Lager, I've brewed a few with good results then the last couple didn't come out so good. Were drinkable but with off flavors that I didn't like. I think the problem was I wasn't pitching enough yeast. Here is what I'm doing.... Trying for a light American Lager, 6 LBS 6 row, 2 LBS flaked Rice, .5 LB Carapils. Should come in around 1.040. Using Hallertau, I have Omega OYL-103 Lager yeast and going to do a 1LT starter with extra light DME....Now my questions what temp should I mash at to keep it thin? what temp should I pitch at and ferment at.. I really want this to come out better then my last attempts, otherwise I will give up on Lager again. BTW I have good temp control for my fermenters now. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[BlackDuck]

I would mash at 148, if you hit 150 that’s fine too. I’m not familiar with the temp ranges for that yeast, but a ferment temp of 50 would probably work. You can pitch at that temp too. Expect a slow start. And don’t forget to do a D rest at the tail end of fermentation.

After the d rest slowly bring the temps down (5 degrees per day) until you hit 35. And let it sit there for a week. Then bottle or keg. If you’re kegging, go ahead and put it on gas right away, but don’t touch it for at least 6 weeks. This lagering period is the hardest part, cause your going to want to drink it. But have patience.


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[Inkleg]

I would mash at 148, if you hit 150 that’s fine too. I’m not familiar with the temp ranges for that yeast, but a ferment temp of 50 would probably work. You can pitch at that temp too. Expect a slow start. And don’t forget to do a D rest at the tail end of fermentation.

After the d rest slowly bring the temps down (5 degrees per day) until you hit 35. And let it sit there for a week. Then bottle or keg. If you’re kegging, go ahead and put it on gas right away, but don’t touch it for at least 6 weeks. This lagering period is the hardest part, cause your going to want to drink it. But have patience.

^^Yep all of this.^^

A quick run though a calculator for an SG of 1.040 at 5 gallons shows you'll need at least a 1.5 liter starter and a 2 liter would be even better.
What off flavors did you have in the other beers?

[Beer-lord]

It's been 3 years since I brewed a lager. Tell me why I want to. Can I use lots of hops?
Winter is here (not today, it's 79) so I need to do something different soon or I'll go mad.

[berryman]

It's been 3 years since I brewed a lager. Tell me why I want to. Can I use lots of hops?
Winter is here (not today, it's 79) so I need to do something different soon or I'll go mad.

Ha Ha Why I am going to try it again, I guess it's a challenge for me because the last few I done didn't come out the way I expected. But I want this to come out better. I know we are mostly Ale brewers and harder to make a good lager but am going to try it again and see what happens.

[Beer-lord]

Lots of podcasts talking about 60 + degree lager fermentation with no problems. That's interesting to many homebrewers.

[BlackDuck]

Can I make a suggestion? Instead of doing an American Lager with the adjuncts, how about trying a Czech Pilsner? It’s pretty much Pilsner malt, a touch of carapils and Saaz hops. I would be happy to share a recipe. One other thing I forgot to mention is the water. It’s extremely important on a Czech Pils, maybe a little less in a German pils, but still important. I start with 100% distilled and build from there.


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[BlackDuck]

Lots of podcasts talking about 60 + degree lager fermentation with no problems. That's interesting to many homebrewers.

Unless your using a hybrid yeast, like a cream ale, or kolsch yeast, that would probably work. But I wouldn’t ferment a lager yeast that high. If you do, you would probably need a longer d rest and a longer period to clean it up.


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[Beer-lord]

http://brulosophy.com/2016/09/19/lager- ... t-results/
This is just one of many that I've read that show very little to no difference between fermenting at lager vs ale temps. Of course, if and when you can, I would strongly suggest fermenting at the recommended lager temps but when you can't get to the lower temps, it does appear that for many of the lager styles, fermenting at the upper 50's to 60's yield very little difference. Like all styles, there are many opinions but I've heard at least 4 other podcasts with similar thoughts.
It's very interesting to say the least.

[mashani]

The big thing about lager yeast is it works at 50 or 45 or what not. That was what made it magic stuff before around oh... late 19th century or there about... (think Pasteur). People always forget that things were very different before then. What we drink as beer today is a very "modern" thing.

I'd argue that the idea that lagers are more 'clean' goes back to the times where if you fermented at ale temperatures you might get 'other creatures' involved in your fermentation, but if you ferment at 45-50, most 'other creatures' don't like to do anything. If you age your beer at 45-50 or lower, then the same 'other creatures' would still remain suppressed. So you can brew over the winter for spring and summer and fall festivals, and your beer is still good. Magic.

Where ales at ale temps, not so much (it would end up a matter of luck no matter how skilled you were... skill might make you somewhat more lucky, but there would always be those bad days).

That's why I am not surprised that lager yeast at 60 still makes good lager like beer in our times. We don't have the same problems unless we are sloppy brewers (or if you have house brett LOL). But before modern sanitation ideas were adopted that would not have been always been the case - at least not all for beer that was aged. They would have acted more like "ale" to peoples minds at those temps. As in they would eventually go "bad" sometimes. Just would depend on how lucky you were and how careful you were, but there were serious limits to that back then.

I think the "laagering" (cold storage) is probably more important to get it really "clean" in a modern sense as it will drop out some esters and compounds bound to the polyphenols in the beer.

But that wasn't the only problem faced by people back in the "old days".

Anyways, I think that yeast is likely to be August Schnell yeast. So it would probably make most excellent pre-prohibition lagers. As in lagers with more flavor then your typical modern macro brew.

Oh and also:

It's been 3 years since I brewed a lager. Tell me why I want to. Can I use lots of hops?

Of course, isn't that what an IPL is?

I think I'm going the opposite route though, I am seriously considering brewing a dopplebock soon with a decoction mash, or at least a pseudo decoction.

[John Sand]

I am planning a lager this winter, maybe with natural temperature control. The front of my basement/garage is about 52 right now. I like Stella, my dad liked Grolsch, I am looking at European Pilsners.

[berryman]

I would mash at 148, if you hit 150 that’s fine too. I’m not familiar with the temp ranges for that yeast, but a ferment temp of 50 would probably work. You can pitch at that temp too. Expect a slow start. And don’t forget to do a D rest at the tail end of fermentation.

All good points BD, I plan on using a secondary just before D rest and then lager at around 33 - 38 for not sure how long yet but quite a while before bottling or I might bottle after D rest and then after carb cold store or a some of both.

A quick run though a calculator for an SG of 1.040 at 5 gallons shows you'll need at least a 1.5 liter starter and a 2 liter would be even better.

Thanks Ink, after I posted this, I ran the numbers though the yeast calculator that I use and it came out that I will need to do at least a 2Lt

Can I make a suggestion? Instead of doing an American Lager with the adjuncts, how about trying a Czech Pilsner? It’s pretty much Pilsner malt, a touch of carapils and Saaz hops. I would be happy to share a recipe.

Yes that sounds interesting, but I already have the ingredients for this.

I am planning a lager this winter, maybe with natural temperature control. The front of my basement/garage is about 52 right now. I like Stella, my dad liked Grolsch, I am looking at European Pilsners.

John, it sounds like what BlackDuck is telling about would be a good one to try, I like most anything with Saaz hops.

[BlackDuck]

I’ll post the recipe stats when I have a chance so stay tuned. But I’ve got some gifts to wrap, and beers to drink while wrapping.


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[berryman]

I didn't want to cloud up Johns Lager Redux post so decided to up date this one as it sounds like we both started them about the same time, but done them just a little different. My OG was 1.039 which is lower then I usually brew (1.050- 1.065 or so) But I am trying to make a light American Lager light in body, light in color and low hop presence. It will be low on ABV but this is for someone that wants to try a home brew but are not use to a good craft beer. I mashed at 148, pitched a decanted 2 L starter of Omega-103 @55 deg, dropped it down to 52 deg. and set on that temp. I had a lot longer lag time then I usually do but the bubbles begun about 20 hours after pitching. 6 days in bubbling stopped, 8 days in (today) I racked to a 5 gal. secondary and left very little headspace. after the transfer it bubbled and purged. I took a reading and at 1.008. I am now letting it rise to around 68 deg for a few days and see if the number changes. Then going to take it down to around 35 and set on that for a while until I decide to bottle.

[Kealia]

I didn't want to cloud up Johns Lager Redux post so decided to up date this one as it sounds like we both started them about the same time, but done them just a little different. My OG was 1.039 which is lower then I usually brew (1.050- 1.065 or so) But I am trying to make a light American Lager light in body, light in color and low hop presence. It will be low on ABV but this is for someone that wants to try a home brew but are not use to a good craft beer. I mashed at 148, pitched a decanted 2 L starter of Omega-103 @55 deg, dropped it down to 52 deg. and set on that temp. I had a lot longer lag time then I usually do but the bubbles begun about 20 hours after pitching. 6 days in bubbling stopped, 8 days in (today) I racked to a 5 gal. secondary and left very little headspace. after the transfer it bubbled and purged. I took a reading and at 1.008. I am now letting it rise to around 68 deg for a few days and see if the number changes. Then going to take it down to around 35 and set on that for a while until I decide to bottle.

Interesting that you're doing the D-rest *after* racking instead of before. Is this intentional? In theory I suppose all of the yeast that will be doing the cleaning up should be in suspension still instead of being dropped out, but I've always (on the lagers I've done) done the D-rest before transferring. I'm not sure I've ever heard of anybody doing it post-transfer.