In which The Hat has an Epiphany

[FedoraDave]

Okay, I've been working for a couple of years now, trying to perfect my recipe for a little brew I call White Panama. I had originally conceived it as a blonde ale with a strong orange flavor. I know wheat beers are more amenable to fruit flavors, but I wanted to create something more mainstream, but light, with that orange flavor in the aroma and throughout the drinking experience.

So tonight, I'm sitting watching "The Fugitive" (a great movie, BTW, and one which, if you don't like it, I hate you), and sipping on one of my newest brews, Suddenly! Saison, when a realization hits me with the force of a wet haddock across the fetlock.

It's not the flavoring ---- it's the yeast!

I could make White Panama a saison! And sure, I could add some lemon peel, but what's going to really bring out the fruit flavor is the saison yeast doing its thing!

So I'm gonna give that a try. I'll keep the same malt and hops bills, but I'll use saison yeast, and ferment it at a slightly elevated temperature. Mid-September would be a good time to do that, since my basement is probably going to stay in the high 60s/low 70s for a few more weeks.

Now what I need to do is some research on saison yeasts. I've only made the one, and it was because I had Danstar saison yeast on hand. It has a good fruit flavor, but it also has some peppery/spicy flavors, and I'm thinking I want to go more to the fruity side, so any suggestions (and I know you have suggestions!) on which yeast might be the better choice would be most welcome, and worthy of a tip o' the ol' fedora with my sincerest gratitudinous emotions.

The recipe, BTW is as follows (2.5 gallon batch):

Munich 4 lb
Biscuit 0.5 lb
Carapils 0.5 lb

Hallertau 0.5 oz. 60 minutes
Hallertau 0.5 oz. 20 minutes
Hallertau 0.5 oz. 7 minutes

Originally, I had intended to use US-05 yeast and dry hop 2 TBSP of bitter orange peel after primary ferentation.

The only thing I'd change, though, would be the yeast.

[Kealia]

Queue Mashani in 3.....2......1......

[FedoraDave]

Queue Mashani in 3.....2......1......

[Gymrat]

I thought the peppery flavor was something sought after and a result of any saison yeast.

[FedoraDave]

I thought the peppery flavor was something sought after and a result of any saison yeast.

Could be. And it's also possible that I'll prefer the results to what I've gotten in the past. Or that the addition of the orange peel will override the spiciness. I just don't know, but I think it's worth a try.

[BigPapaG]

Most yeast can be coaxed into producing more esters (fruity notes) as you know by doing a number of things such as raising the fermentation temp, under pitching the yeast, using a yeast that produces more AAT (an ester precursor, think the fruitier characteristics of S-04 vs US-05). Esterification of alcohol is controlled by an enzyme called alcohol acetate transferase (AAT).

Using a Saison yeast is a good potential change, and a Belgian strain, though historically finicky, might be a better (fruitier) choice than a French strain...

Good reading:

http://www.winning-homebrew.com/esters.html

Another thing you could consider is the addition of a 'juicier' hop for your flavor addition such as Amarillo, Calypso or Galaxy... Experimentation would be required here as well...

The addition of some sweet orange peel could help as well.

[mashani]

How warm did you ferment the Bella Saison? It and French Saison get a bit more fruit esters if you ferment at higher temps (upper 70s/80s). But they will still be peppery. If you ferment Belgian saison hot (80s-90s) you will get fruit but you will also get bubblegum. Do you want bugglegum? But again it will still be peppery/spicy too.

So I guess it would help to know what kind of fruit do you want to get out of the yeast? IE 3787, you can get pears, citrus, melon, apple (but it doesn't taste like acetaldehyde/cider), plum... WLP500 gives you delicate spice, plum at low/moderate temps, and increasing levels of banana if as fermentation temps get warmer, with decreasing levels of earthy spice.

[BigPapaG]

Ahh yes, the bubblegum...

You know, maybe a cleaner yeast at warmer temps...

Or even, dare I say it, a lager like W-34/70 fermented at 68*F or so...

That will excentuate the fruity esters and add to the orange peel and or hop flavors...

Again, experimentation required and YMMV.

[mashani]

Kolsch yeast maybe too. That will let the inherent flavors shine and give you a crisp lager like finish.

[monsteroyd]

Interesting. I just did the Saison with zest and juice from 3 oranges.

Monty

[haerbob3]

Hat I usually use Wyeast's French Saison. I am eagerly a-waitng for my Antithesis Du Vin Saison kit. Will be using the Wyeast's French Saison in this one as well. This strain does not need a lot of attention, nice temp range and good flavors. As with most ale yeasts warmer give you more flavor.

[FedoraDave]

Good suggestions here, and I am most grateful. Lots to think about.

I want an orange/citrus flavor to predominate, but I think I'd be okay with a little spice/pepper in the background. I guess I'm sort of looking for a Blue Moon-type experience, but without the wheat, and I like the sweetness of the Munich and the bready influence of the Biscuit.

My primary shortcoming is in my lack of knowledge and experience with certain types of yeast, Saison yeast being one of them. The suggestion of using Kolsch yeast is intriguing, also, and I know nothing about that yeast's characteristics, as well.

More research is needed, clearly. And more questions will be asked, no doubt. I'll bookmark this thread for future reference, and for when I want to resurrect it.

[mashani]

Believe it or not, Blue moon uses a regular old American ale yeast, something like WLP001 or S-05. All of it's fruit and spice comes from... fruit and spice.

So, that said, if you want what you add to be what's at the front, then a really clean ale yeast, as above or Nottingham fermented cool, or a lager yeast or Kolsch yeast might be what you are looking for...

[haerbob3]

Dave Kolsch is a very clean ale yeast with a lager flavor profile. I like White Labs strain better Wyeast's. However, for me & mine, the White Lab's strain requires more conditioning time because of sulfur compounds. I do think that you will find pepper, clove, banana and other flavors in the forefront of most Belgium,Flemish, Saison and other Trappist style yeasts. with wanting to show case the orange flavor I would lean towards the Kolsch. Perhaps even do this as a lager??

[FedoraDave]

Doing it as a lager is a novel idea. I have a feeling I'm going to be experimenting on this for awhile.