Green Apple Flavors in All refills

[DjPorkchop]

So I just spouted off a minute ago in a old post by our old buddy Jon about apple flavor.

To get the party started, I have very good water at home. And at any time, i can never smell any chlorine in it or taste it. Not saying it isn't there, but the city does an awful good job with their water. I have brewed NUMEROUS extract batches using steeping grains and Briess Extracts. Never an issue with beer even using the old standard 2-2-2 we used to use back in the old MBF days. Never a issue and folks loved the beers.

Fast forward a little bit. My mother in-law found a Mr Beer refill pack and bought it for me. it was the CAL and the Mexican Azteca thing. Same water as before, same cleaning techniques, used star san to sanitize, and 2 weeks later, I bottled the beer. then a couple weeks later in the fridge they went. 2 weeks later, YUCK! SOLID green apple flavor. Mr Beer says to let them go longer . Like 4-6 weeks in the bottle before the refrigerator. Wait... what? Then I tried the other one same ways and all. Same thing. SOLID green apple flavor. Same answer from the powers that be over at Mr Beer. Some thought I was such a new guy they had to tell me exactly what to do and why. lol I been doing MRBeer since 2009 boys. I then aquired another one from a neighbor who had the same exact issue who said he would never use the products ever again. So he gave it to me. I dont recall what it was. it might have been another CAL. Same thing Green apple. Not a single difference in taste between all 3 brews.

This never happened pre sale. I am wondering what now is different? i hate to say never again, but if this is the issue, never again. I liked the old versions MUCH better. Anything I am doing wrong other than not letting the beer sit for 6 months before drinking it? (exaggeration factor included). I'm lost fellers. I still love the LBK's and the PET bottles and use them regularly.


i am personally thinking I am sticking with what was good and brewing my own recipes using Briess and grains and my won hops. What say ye BeerBorgs?


P.S. I mean no harm to any company listed in my post. This is purely my own opinion and is NOT the opinion of this website. Thanks!

[bpgreen]

Apple cider flavor is a sign of acetaldehyde. The most common cause is immature beer. I've been kegging for years. When I was bottling, I usually let it sit in the bottle for several months, so I never had a problem with the apple cider taste.

Another cause is using too little yeast. But the newer yeast packets have much more yeast than the old ones (the old ones had 2 g and I think the new ones have 5 g, but I haven't bought any of the new ones).

I wonder if it's really an apple cider taste or something else (extract twang if the HMEs are older, or maybe the hops they're using now).

If you liked the old HMEs and don't like the new ones, an easy fix is to buy from Brew Demon, since they sell the old extracts.

I generally just make my own recipes, but I've bought some HMEs for quick brew days.

[mashani]

Mr. Beer refills these days mostly use a bittering hop called "Pride of Ringwood" which has a very distinct taste, even when used as a bittering hop. I don't taste it as the same green apple like acetaldehyde, but more like "woody bitter", and not in a good way. It basically ruins 90% of the extracts they make for me. I used to sometimes use the extracts as a bittering addition to save time once in a while, and build recipes around them, but don't anymore because of this and I discovered high AA short boil technique, so I don't bother with HMEs anymore to save time. I just short boil with a 10%+ AA hop.

Maybe that's what your tasting and perceiving it in a different way. It seems different folks perceive Pride of Ringwood in different ways, some it doesn't bother, but me it does a lot...

The way to know for sure would be to find a bottle of Coopers ale in a store and try it. If you taste the same thing, that's what it is.

The brew demon extracts don't use that hop, and are actually the same thing as the old extracts but with different names - so if you try one of those and don't taste the same thing, then that might identify it for you too.

[bpgreen]

Mr. Beer refills these days mostly use a bittering hop called "Pride of Ringwood" which has a very distinct taste, even when used as a bittering hop. I don't taste it as the same green apple like acetaldehyde, but more like "woody bitter", and not in a good way. It basically ruins 90% of the extracts they make for me. I used to sometimes use the extracts as a bittering addition to save time once in a while, and build recipes around them, but don't anymore because of this and I discovered high AA short boil technique, so I don't bother with HMEs anymore to save time. I just short boil with a 10%+ AA hop.

Maybe that's what your tasting and perceiving it in a different way. It seems different folks perceive Pride of Ringwood in different ways, some it doesn't bother, but me it does a lot...

The way to know for sure would be to find a bottle of Coopers ale in a store and try it. If you taste the same thing, that's what it is.

The brew demon extracts don't use that hop, and are actually the same thing as the old extracts but with different names - so if you try one of those and don't taste the same thing, then that might identify it for you too.

Those are the hop flavors to which I was alluding. I knew there was somebody here who knew the details.

[RickBeer]

I found the lighter brews never tasted great, while the darker ones, and the Craft Series, were fine. Brewing at 65 degree wort temp helps. Many don't use any temp control and that does cause taste issues.

[BlackDuck]

As I was reading your post, the Pride of Ringwood was the first thing that was popping into my head too.


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[DjPorkchop]

Thanks for all the info guys. I really appreciate it. I never knew about that one hop you mentioned.

As far as my temp control goes, I do apologize as I forgot that important info. I ferment in my basement that runs a dehumidifier 24/7. The temps stay in the mid to lower 60's most of the time. When I condition in the bottles, I bring them upstairs where it tends to stay around the 72 degree mark.

I am most certainly going to give brew demon a try and see. I don't normally use recipes anymore as I make my own and use the Briess and steeping grains and my own hop additions. But in the event my wife or Mother in-law decide to gift me refills, I would want a quality refill and frankly speaking, the old refills before the sale, I really did actually enjoy. The American Blonde Ale rocked! The whispering wheat was great, and I used to use the Canadian as a base for a few different recipes that I brewed.

As far as letting them others condition for months and months, I don't have the space. The wife and i and 2 kids live in a 900 square foot house lol I am used to the old 2-2-2 method that always worked great in the past. I don't mind young beers. Especially in the wheat category.

Thanks again for the replies. I truly do appreciate it!

Ray

[mashani]

Ok... so knowing that now... depending on how low your low 60s are - the yeast that Coopers provides might very well throw off a lot more acetaldehyde in the low 60s - anything under 64 degrees would be my bet. I know I got noticeable acetaldehyde if I didn't keep it warm, so I always fermented warm with it (but I am an acetaldehyde super taster, so I might over react to it, and I know others have used the yeast cooler and not complained)... But Coopers Ale yeast is a "real ale" yeast, it really likes it more like 66-72 degrees like a British strain. Coopers Australia (Coopers DIY, big cans) actually suggests 20-24C (68-75F) as an optimal temperature range. But it is actually a somewhat clean / good warm fermenting yeast. And it's not the same yeast that came with the old kits.

So if it's not Pride of Ringwood, it could very well just be that your temperature control is actually too little to make the yeast happy and you have a low tolerance for acetaldehyde like me... Brew Demon is using S-33 which has a very broad temperature range. It is likely what came with the old kits too.

[DjPorkchop]

Hmmm well that's food for thought. I know over the years trying different yeasts I have learned how far the flavors can swing but I never thought this much. When I say green apple I am talking 100% SOLID green apple. My wife literally went and spit it out when I had her taste it just to be sure.

I actually have no way of controlling temps and keeping them on the higher side. It must be down stairs in the basement for room purposes (900 sqr foot house). Im real sure it does not get below 65 or even 64 degrees at any time. Now that I know that, I have to stick with what works at basement temps for me as far as fermentation goes. Unless I switch yeasts, that will pretty much put the kaboshes on me ever using one of their refills ever again. And I am fairly certain I'm not going to keep spare yeast on hand just in case someone buys me refill gifts since I do not buy refills my self. I build my own recipes at a LHBS.

You guys and your replies have been great! I truly appreciate the info. It surely gives me some in sight and things to think about.

Take care and have a great night!

Ray

[RickBeer]

If you are only going 2 weeks in the bottles before refrigerating, try the longer recommendation, 4 weeks at least, better 6. It will make a marked difference especially on the lighter brews. Any in the fridge can come back out.

[DjPorkchop]

I can surely see that with the lighter beers. But here's the kicker. With the old Mr Beer recipes, that was not really necessary. At least it was never a factor for me.

I started out over at mr beer fans website and they religiously preached the 2-2-2 method instead of the ridiculous 1-1-1 method that MrBeer said would make great tasting beer. The 2-2-2 never let me down not even once and for the most part, all I ever brewed was the American Blonde Ale, the whispering wheat weisnebier, and the canadian what ever it was. That was pretty much it from 2009 until the sale took place. never once had an issue. Adn truth be told, SOME green beers , mainly wheats, don't bother me at all and are preferred.

So now with the new versions of MrBeer recipes, it takes 6 weeks? I can't do that. Especially with 10 or 12 gallons of beer brewed up and waiting. Hell at one point in time with the old recipes, I had over 30 gallons ready at all times. lol My pipeline was busy! No go in a 900 square foot house though. Space is at a premium here. I'll stick with my home made recipes that 9 out of 10 are pretty much ready a couple weeks in. Sounds ridiculous don't it? I just brewed a Red hawk Ale here a bit back that was Dynamite! I used a 3 in Primary, 2-3 in condition and hours in the refrigerator. lol I'll post up the recipe in the proper place here today some time.

Take care fellers!

[MadBrewer]

I didnt' read all the posts if it's mentioned already but I assume you were using the stock yeast for the MB refills? Not sure what that yeast is anymore, but I remember the packets before for one not being enough yeast and two you never know the storage conditions it had before you used it. When you were making your own extract/grain batches perhaps you also upgraded the yeast?

[bpgreen]

I didnt' read all the posts if it's mentioned already but I assume you were using the stock yeast for the MB refills? Not sure what that yeast is anymore, but I remember the packets before for one not being enough yeast and two you never know the storage conditions it had before you used it. When you were making your own extract/grain batches perhaps you also upgraded the yeast?

I haven't bought any of the new refills, but I think they replaced the 2 g S-33 with a larger packet (maybe 5 g) of some proprietary Cooper's yeast.

[RickBeer]

Correct.

[DjPorkchop]

I didnt' read all the posts if it's mentioned already but I assume you were using the stock yeast for the MB refills? Not sure what that yeast is anymore, but I remember the packets before for one not being enough yeast and two you never know the storage conditions it had before you used it. When you were making your own extract/grain batches perhaps you also upgraded the yeast?

I actually never made any of my own recipes using the "new generation" MrBeer refills. Back in the old days I did often (pre sale of company to Coopers). The only 3 I have done thus far is the mexican azteca (??) and a CAL that I know of and I believe another CAL as well. Plain jane stock, under the lid yeast used.


The home made recipes I referred to, were using briess exrtacts, hops and steeping grains and yeast s of my choice. No MR Beer involved. I just used the home made recipes for reference to cleaning ans sanitization as well as temp and water conditions.