BeerBorg

A quick question and I should and probably know the answer, but what's the difference? My LHBS has flaked rice, I've been using rice syrup solids from Midwest in a recipe but planning on getting what I need from my LHBS this time so I don't have to wait for the mail order.

Myself, I would use flaked rice in the mash for an all grain recipe and rice syrup solids in an extract recipe.

Flaked needs to be mashed, or all you will get is starch, and the whole point of it is to get sugar without much body/color contribution.

So I used solids in my extract batch because of this.

So use flaked for all grain in mash and use solids for extract?

mashani wrote:Flaked needs to be mashed, or all you will get is starch, and the whole point of it is to get sugar without much body/color contribution.

So I used solids in my extract batch because of this.

wait, I thought flaked wheat/rye/etc. was a steep additive (he said, surprised), not a mash. or is rice different?

jimjohson wrote:

mashani wrote:Flaked needs to be mashed, or all you will get is starch, and the whole point of it is to get sugar without much body/color contribution.

So I used solids in my extract batch because of this.

wait, I thought flaked wheat/rye/etc. was a steep additive (he said, surprised), not a mash. or is rice different?

If you want much if any fermentable sugars out of those things you have to mash them too.

They can add some body/mouth feel (due to starch/protein) and some flavor, especially flaked rye, so you can still get good results, depending on what you are expecting and the beer type. But they are adding starches instead of sugar if you do not mash. If your beer is darker in color you might not notice the haze from this, but in a pale beer you likely would. The other potential problem with the added starches it that souring bacteria, some kinds of brett, etc. can eat it - where your regular yeast can not - so that even if the bugs get in in tiny amounts, your yeast can not out compete them for those starches. So a beer could become "infected" as such more easily. Belgian sours often have unmalted wheat, unmalted barley etc. added in amounts that are too great to be converted by the mash on purpose to get this effect, IE give the yeast something to eat and the bugs something else to eat when the yeast is done.

So anyways back to the rice, it has no flavor to contribute and it has no body to contribute (at least it's not supposed to, the point of using it is to not increase body), so there is not any good reason I can think of to even consider steeping flaked rice. I can understand trying it with rye for potential flavor... but not rice.

dbrowning wrote:So use flaked for all grain in mash and use solids for extract?

Yes, in general, unless you meet the criteria above (IE you want some rye flavor or say some oaty sweetness/creamyness perhaps, and you have impeccable sanitation practices, and don't care about potential starch haze). But I can't think of any criteria where I would do this with flaked rice. To me that would be defeating the entire purpose of using rice adjunct.

Or you could always do a partial mash, which is what I do when I want to use flaked rye in an otherwise extract batch, IE I'm making 5 gallons of beer and I can't mash that much grain in my pot, so I do it partial mash/partial volume/extract late addition... that's typically what my 5 gallon batches are... where a 2.5 gallon batch I can do AG if I want/have time.

I don't separate my steep grains from my mash grains anyway. I figure a mash is just a really long steep @ more controlled temps

jimjohson wrote:I don't separate my steep grains from my mash grains anyway. I figure a mash is just a really long steep @ more controlled temps

The real difference between a mash and a steep is the presence of grains that have enzymes that will convert the starches to sugars--most malted and not too heavily roasted grains provide enzymatic power to convert themselves, and what we think of as base grains typically have more.

So, 2-row, 6-row, Pale, Pilsner, Maris Otter (and other specific cultivars of 2-row like Golden Promise, etc), Wheat Malt, Rye Malt, Oat Malt, Munich, Vienna (and probably others that I'm forgetting) all will turn a steep into a mash, so long as the temp is between 140* (or so) and 165* (or so), no matter how long or short it is. Sure, some will have WAY more diastatic power than others, so they'll be able to convert much more than just themselves, but all of them contain enzymes that will provide some conversion.

Flaked grains don't have any diastatic power, so unless you're looking for the extra body, mouthfeel and flavor from them, you need to add an enzyme source to ensure conversion (which is also important if you want to end up with a clear beer--otherwise, you'll end up with starch haze).

That said, you're doing the right thing! You don't want to separate your steeping grains from your mashing grains, because you want the enzymes from your mashing grains to get to your steeping grains, too!

My apologies if I misinterpreted what you meant and ran with it--I've been know to do that sort of thing from time to time.

Jon, I'm impressed. You are really digging and reading this forum, that post goes back almost 6 months. Very good reply and good info. TY

@Jon I've found the same thing to be true. I've always added Flaked Rye directly to the mash tun whenever I wanted to spice up an IPA. In fact using eBIAB adding 10% Flaked Oats, Wheat, Rye or Corn on my system has never caused trouble with the lauter.